Ep 60. From Fear to Freedom: How Rik Left Insomnia Behind

In this inspiring story, Rik shares how insomnia brought him to his knees — and how he slowly rewired fear into freedom. From panic attacks to the loneliness of sleepless nights, he describes what it was like to feel trapped in the cycle of anxiety and exhaustion.

But through patience, community, and a new understanding of the mind, Rik discovered something profound: freedom isn’t perfect sleep. It’s letting go of the fight.

“The wild thing is dealing with insomnia… it's just kind of letting it be—that's what fixes it.”

You’ll hear:

•  Why medical fixes (like CPAP, supplements, and strict rules) didn’t solve the struggle

•  The role of community in easing loneliness and breaking the cycle

•  How Rik learned that sleep doesn’t require calmness or perfection to happen

•  What it looks like to shift from fighting insomnia to accepting it

•  Why recovery is messy, non-linear, and still full of HOPE

•  The surprising ways progress shows up

•  How neuroplasticity helps rewire fear into freedom

If you’re struggling, Rik’s story is a powerful reminder that hope is real, recovery is possible, and you are not alone 🧡

 

Connect with Beth:

👉 Instagram 

 

Work with Beth:

👉 Start the Free Insomnia Course

👉 Learn About the Mentorship


Full Transcription Below:

About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:

For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights. 

DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep.® Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurance as to any particular outcome.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Overcoming Insomnia with the Power of Neuroplasticity

 Opening & Welcome

Beth:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the podcast today. I am so glad to be doing another hope story because these are definitely the most listened to podcast episodes, and it's always such an honor to be able to sit down with someone that I've had the opportunity to work with and talk about them and their story. So today, Rick is joining us. A big hello and welcome to you Rick.
Rik:
Hello. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.
Beth:
Well, thanks so much for coming on because I know you've already had a full workday today and you're probably starving because you didn't have a lot of time between getting home and hopping on the call.
Rik:
No, yeah, I didn't eat lunch today, but that's kind of normal at work. So I'll usually eat dinner around five 30 and and then hang out until I go to
Beth:
Bed. Okay. Well, perfect. Okay, so let's just start kind of how I always start. If you wouldn't mind just taking us back and telling us a little bit about how insomnia started for you and what that was like.

How Insomnia Began

Rik:
Yeah, absolutely. I remember it started end of April, early May of last year, I got sick just like a normal, your average head cold. And I remember one night and whenever I was sick, what I would do back in the day was just take a ton of NyQuil and just pass out. And I remember I would sleep great. And I remember for whatever reason that night I kept waking up. I kept waking up and it was like I was snoring myself awake. I'm like, this is weird. Okay, what's going on here? And it kept waking up, felt I didn't get any sleep, go to the doctor and she's like, Hey, your blood pressure's a little high. And so then that's one more thing, building on the anxiety. I'm like, oh, that's weird.
And we went home that night, got some good sleep, and then went back to work. And I remember it was a Friday and I got home from work or got home from hanging out with my buddies that Friday. And same thing I kept that was more pronounced. I kept every 10 minutes it felt like snore, myself, awake. And I remember it was at some 0.4 in the morning, and I think I had what was a panic attack. I've always been kind of an anxious person or what am I call, my mom called me a worrywart, but I remember legit having a feeling I was going to throw up and I'm like sweating and just freaking out. I'm like, why can't I fall asleep? What is happening here? What is going on? So freaked out, ended up calling my mom at six 30 and she's like, Hey, what's going on? I kind of told her what happened, and she's like, well, how are you feeling now? I'm better, but still, that was really weird. And she's like, well, hey, take it easy today, kind of relax if you can, and just see what happens tonight. Maybe it's the cold affecting you. I'm like, okay. So then that night I passed out pretty hard. I was like, okay, cool. I'm cured. We're good to go here.
And then the next day it just stuck in my brain. I remember, and I was just kind of on edge all day. And then sure enough that night get ready to go to bed. And it felt like I didn't sleep all night. And I was like, oh man, that was Sunday going into Monday. So I go into work Monday, just like a zombie. My boss's like, you all right? I'm like, yeah, I couldn't sleep last night. And so then it's even more my brain. And then I go home that night, don't sleep that night. I'm like, what is happening? This is insane. And then I think the next couple nights slept, I think because my body was just so tired, slept, and it would just kind of be that pattern. And then it turned from the snoring, keeping me awake to, I just felt like I wasn't going to sleep at all, and I would just lie there and just the stress. And I had sweat and I'm like, what is happening? What is going on here? And it just keeps getting more and more ingrained in your brain. And then all, so then now I started feeling anxious, just anxious all the time. So first thing, so funny, I feel like you hear this across the board, first thing I do, go to the doctor,
You do, you're like, oh my God, yeah, of course to the doctor, they can fix anything. What is wrong with me?

The Medical Route & Sleep Study

So I go there and she's like, yeah, your blood pressure's a little high. You got this, you got that, but not going to really write anything for sleeping. Go. You should get a sleep study done. I'm a bigger guy, so definitely she's get a sleep study, done, this, that, and the other. I'm like, okay. And then it's just persisting. And some nights I'd sleep, but I would wake up and feel like I didn't sleep at all, even though I'd got six, seven hours, I would just be so on edge the next day and it was miserable.
Beth:
Yeah. Let me ask, I can't remember. Prior to then, it was like early 2024 you said?
Rik:
Yes.
Beth:
So was snoring in the picture at all prior to that?
Rik:
Oh yeah, for sure. I knew I snore and I stole myself awake from time to time, especially if I was sleeping on my back, I'd wake myself up, but anything, it wasn't in my brain, I didn't think of it. I'm just like, okay, I'm just roll over. And I was fine, but now all of a sudden it's wormed itself into your brain. And I noticed leading up to this, I had started waking up at sometime between two 30 and three 15 in the morning. And It's like anything, the more you pay attention to it, the more it kind of sticks around. And I was like, that's really weird. I need to try to fix that wrong answer.
Beth:
Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, this is like, okay, so now you're moving into the medical model, you're going to the doctor, which of course we all do. And then the whole thing starts with the sleep studies and all of that. And this is when the relationship with sleep really starts to change. So what happened? So how did it go after that?

CPAP, Frustration & Rising Anxiety

Rik:
So of course it takes forever to get a sleep study. So finally I go in, I see the doctor, and right on institute out here in Scottsdale, but really high marks. So I go in, I talk to the doctor and he is like, okay, we're going to do a sleep study. I'm like, but hey, I obviously have sleep apnea. I'm going to accept that, but why can't I fall asleep? And he's like, well, we'll put you on a CPA and you'll fall asleep. And I'm like, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying here.
And to their credit, they don't understand. And they're just there looking at the medical side of things and he's like, no, no. Once we get you your C pap and your sleep study, you'll be fine. I'm like, okay, sure. Alright, hopefully this fixes it. So they give the at-home sleep study. I take that, give it, yeah, you have horrible sleep apnea. Here you go. Here's your new CA and your mask, which I joke, I called it my fighter pilot mask because it covered my nose and my mouth.
And so now on top of somebody who already can't sleep, you're going to add this to the mix. And if I move the wrong way, it breaks the seal and it's leaking air and just miserable. And I remember at this time, we always have family vacation the 4th of July at my parents' house. And I go out there and my mom's like, I feel my mom's like, what is wrong with you? And I'm telling her this, and she's like, well, can you just try to relax? I'm like, no, I can't try to relax. All I can think about is how I can't sleep. And it just makes everything worse. And it was weird for me. I just remember being at work was almost a reprieve
Because I would be distracted there, but on the drive home, I'd start getting the feeling the pit of my stomach and just getting worked up. And what had once been my sanctuary of chill at my house was now felt like a prison. And then I'd sit on my couch, barely eat dinner because I was just so wracked with anxiety. And then as it got dark and then closer to bedtime, the anxiety would get worse and I'd get in my bed and I would just start the cold sweats and I would be like, well, maybe I'll sleep tonight, maybe I won't. And it was absolutely miserable.
Beth:
So you knew it wasn't sleep apnea. What did you think was going on at this time? Or was that part of what was so scary?

Anxiety, Therapy & The Partial Picture

Rik:
So that was the scariest part. So then at that time at work, I'm starting to struggle and I have my two bosses, Lex and Kendra are fantastic. I love working for them. So they're trying to get me help through the police department and great support structure. So I'm talking to them and they look at my past and they're like, oh my God, you have some mild post-traumatic stress. You, you probably have anxiety, this, that. And so I get into therapy, start talking to a therapist, then she sends me to a psychiatrist. He evaluates me, and he's like, everyone says, yeah, it looks like you have some generalized anxiety, maybe a little post-traumatic stress in there. And I'm like, okay, that makes sense. And they're like, you're not sleeping because you have anxiety, which is kind of true, but it's anxiety, not the full picture. Not the full picture. So I'm like, okay, well, I just have to get rid of this anxiety. So I'm determined and I'm meditating every day and I'm going on walks and I'm doing this because in my mind, if I get rid of this anxiety and push it out the door, my sleep will come right back. And as we all know, does not work that way.
Beth:
Yeah, yeah.
Rik:
And then I would do the worst thing too horrible. I'd be Googling everything going on Reddit right out of the gate. I cut out coffee, I cut out this, I cut out that I took this supplement. I didn't take that vitamin and going down that rabbit hole.
Beth:
Oh yeah, that's all of us. It's kind of like the low hanging fruit. It's kind of what you hear everywhere. And then when that doesn't really help, you're really nervous and scared and wondering, probably really wondering what in the hell is going on.

“My Brain Is Broken” & Summer Spiral

Rik:
Yeah. Because my entire life I was always a light sleeper. I'd wake up really easily, but a great sleeper. I could fall asleep in the drop of a hat. And if I wanted to, I mean, I could sleep in until 10, 11, sometimes noon, depending on how tired I was. So to all of a sudden have it, I couldn't fall asleep. Everyone says, I felt like my brain was broken.
Beth:
And you know what, Rick? That's not unusual for it to come on that where somebody just never has an experience like that. And it can be just a single sleepless night, and it's so understandable. So by now it's probably what summertime and you're seeing? Yeah,
Rik:
We were in late August, and...
Beth:
So you're going all summer with this. Wow.

Isolation, Lifestyle Constriction & Avoidance

Rik:
And then there's on top of that, the heat out here in Arizona just makes everything even more unbearable. So I'm just a hot, anxious, sweaty mess who hasn't slept at all
Fun. Super fun. Yeah, good times. And then you start doing, the thing that I find typical for a lot of people is you stop going out with your friends, you stop doing stuff, you just want to read everything. And this is the stimulus and that's the stimulus, and that's going to keep you awake, and this is going to keep you awake. And you're just like, oh my God, don't look at your phone, don't watch tv, don't do this, don't do that. And you're trying all these things and it's just making everything worse. I feel like the only thing I didn't do was CBTI, because kind of reading it, I'm like, oh my God, you're going to tell me how am I supposed to time, how long I've been in bed? I'm going to be looking at my clock every 20 minutes. There's no way that's going to work for me. So at least I knew that was not going to be a route for me.
Beth:
Yeah. I'm so glad. I'm so glad you had that inner voice to say, even by reading it, recognizing that that wouldn't be a good fit.
Rik:
I was like, this is going to be a disaster if I do this.

The Loneliness of Insomnia

Beth:
Yeah. So I remember there's so many things that come along with this experience, and there's so many ways your life gets more and more limited. Just like you said, your world can get smaller and smaller because everything kind of becomes this landmine. And I remember when we were talking and I asked you what was the hardest part, and you said it was the loneliness. Does that still feel true?
Rik:
Oh, absolutely. And that's why I try to hop on the mentorship whenever I can and talk to people. I just remember that because none of my friends experienced this. None of my family have experienced this. And it's just as you sit there in your bed at 2 45 in the morning just wracked with anxiousness and wondering why you can't sleep, you feel so alone. And it sucked. It was awful. I've been through some intense things in my life, and I came out the other side, I'm like, yeah, all right, okay. But this brought me to my knees. And I remember talking to my bosses at work just crying, you don't know what's wrong with you, and you seemingly can't fix this. And it just came so out of the blue and it was brutal.
Beth:
Yes. I think a lot of people listening will completely relate to that. And I know I do as well. What finally brought you into this approach? I know that you were at the Sleep coach school initially, and then you found your way to the mentorship. So you already had such a good foundation coming in. How did you even find it?

Finding a New Approach

Rik:
Of all places? Reddit.
Beth:
Oh, you did? Okay. Found it on Reddit. It's Reddit to the rescue every once in a while.
Rik:
And I found it on Reddit, and I was like, huh. And it was a guy that I think had been through the sleep coach school, and he was like, Hey, this is what it is. And you definitely recognized some things. You're like, huh. And then I remember. So I kind took a picture of that screenshot of that. I'm like, alright, I'll look into that later. And then I remember seeing something, I forget how through my Google searching, and it was this guy, it's this blog of some random guy, and he's like, you're sleeping issues because of that cup of coffee you had. Sleep issues isn't because you watch TV too late. Your sleep issue isn't because of this. Your sleep issue isn't because of that. Your sleep issue is because you're anxious about sleep. And I was like, that kind of jives with what? And so I ended up joining the Sleep coach school, and I was like, okay, cool. And it sounded so weird. What do you mean hyper arousal? What are you talking about? What
Beth:
I was wondering if for you, if it resonated right away or were you a little bit skeptical or was it like, no, this makes total sense.

Skepticism, Learning & Early Progress

Rik:
Definitely a little skeptical because you're like, what are you talking about? I have to unlearn. Being afraid of it just didn't make sense to my analytical brain. And I'm like this, okay. But I remember. And then of course I do the wrong thing and watch this many videos. They limit how many, they limit everything unlocks every week. But just watch the video as fast as I can watching the video that's going to fix everything and doing that. And then would be in their, I think it Slack and their Slack channel, but kind being standoffish at first, not like, okay, well we'll see and not believe in it. And going through that and talking to people and you're like, wow. And you just see, while we are all insomnia is what is this saying?
Beth:
You are unique, but your insomnia isn't.
Rik:
Insomnia is, yeah. And then you see kind of the same thing across the board. And there's subtle differences. What triggers people, what I feel like we all have a thing we fixate on. And I was like, that's kind of interesting. That's interesting. All right, alright. And it started to make more sense and my sleep incrementally got better. And I was like, oh, well there you go. That's a bonus. Things ren't good necessarily great, but things are slightly better. Alright, progress.
Beth:
Yeah. It's always nice when you can get that little bit of evidence. I think this is the good part about community is that when you read other people's experience and you really see yourself in it and you're like, wait a minute, it isn't just me and I'm not completely alone in this. And there are actually a lot of other people that have very, very similar trajectory with insomnia that can be a really good part of community.

The Power of Community

Rik:
Because then suddenly for me, even though those people were all over united, all over the globe, basically, I didn't feel so alone. And sometimes just going on and posting what you're experiencing, just having a place to talk about it and people listen and empathize with you, let alone offering up advice and Hey, look at this, it felt better. So I stopped feeling as isolated as I had felt in the worst of things.
Beth:
Yeah. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
Rik:
It was a great feeling.

Entering the Mentorship & Neuroplasticity 

Beth:
Yeah, it is. And one of the things I love about the mentorship is just having people in all different stages of the recovery process because people that are further down the road can share their perspective from where they're at. And it's also is helpful to see people newer coming in. You can see the previous version of yourself in and that also helps you further along. So that's great. And then how did you find me? Was it just through Sleep Coach school?
Rik:
I think I've seen something about you on there and then you started pop it into my Instagram feed and I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. And I started following you on Instagram and I was like, oh, I want to check out her podcast.
And I started episode one. It talked about where it all started from you. And I don't know, it was just a very calming vibe I got from
Listening to your podcast. And I definitely got all the material from the sleep coach school, but I definitely, I feel like I rushed through it to how fast can I consume this content and fix myself and trying to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and be done with this whole thing. And then I remember reaching out to you on Instagram, Hey, shoot me an email and asking about your mentorship. And I remember one thing was, and I'm reading your blog and the thing that fascinated me was the neuroplasticity. And you're like, oh, you basically, you find that you've forged these pathways in your brain and that's why it's acting the way it is, but you can also change it.
Beth:
Yes.
Rik:
And that really interests me. And at the same time, a buddy of mine who was in the military, he was in recovery programs for post-traumatic to a bunch of different things. And he too was talking about the program he was in was a lot of neuroplasticity. And I'm like, there's something to this. So I remember emailing you and asking you about what the mentorship was like, and you kind of telling me, and I was like, okay, cool. I'm going to do this. This is what I've been looking for. This is some good vibes to it. And I remember saying, I'm like, I want to be active as much as I can. I want to learn as much as I can, but not try to rush through it and just as much as you can with insomnia, enjoy the ride.

Neuroplasticity & Science

Beth:
Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. And I mean, like I said, you kind of came in with the education, but being able, oh, and I wanted to bring that up in our podcast. I remember you talking about your process and how you went through the mentorship and yes, the neuroplasticity aspect to this I find to be such a hopeful angle. And it hasn't even really, the science of neuroplasticity really hasn't even been around that long. I think it was just in the fifties, we just still thought your brain was just fixed and you had what you had and you couldn't change or unlearn anything, which really doesn't make any sense because
Rik:
No, it makes zero sense.
Beth:
I mean, how did we even really think that? So yeah, it was definitely my whole world. My thesis was all about that for a couple of years, and I lived in that. And I still to this day feel like there's a feeling in my body that I get when I think about this aspect of being human. So I'm so glad that resonated. And okay, so you're in the mentorship and you're taking your time this time and you're actually even enjoying the process, a little bit of gasp. What can you share with us about your recovery journey, which of course is almost always very up and down for everyone, but what were some of the struggles that you had and some of the understandings that maybe helped you through them?

Early Recovery: Self-Kindness, Patience & Letting It Be

Rik:
Big struggle I had was being kind to yourself and self-kindness was just tough. And after having a rough night of sleep, not being like, what did I do? Because I think all of us, or most of us, it's so similar, these over analytical brains, which in many aspects of your life are so beneficial to us, but in dealing with insomnia are your worst enemy. You just could not stop thinking about sleep. And so for me it was just practicing being kind to myself and then having patience and understanding this was going to be a bumpy road. It is not a linear progression. I start here and I end here and it's going to take this many months and I'll be cured.
So just for me, I would just try to, I don't know, make baby steps, baby steps each day, try get, and you can't even say try to get, because I feel like when you start saying, I'm going to try to do this, I'm going to do that. The wild thing is dealing with insomnia, it's the opposite. It's just kind of letting it be, and that's what fixes it. Not forcing, I'm going to be better at sleeping. It doesn't work that way.
Beth:
Yes, well said. That's a really key, that's a very, very key thing that you just mentioned right there.

Spotting Progress

Rik:
But it's trying to be more accepting, I guess, each day of where I was at. I remember taking a step back at one point and march and looking back, I'm like, wow, I've still got a ways to go, but look how far I've come. And just kind of being cognizant of that.
Beth:
Yeah. The process is so interesting because it sneaks up on, you mean so often I'm working with people and they're like, oh, I'm not getting better, but then I'll do just what you said is think back to six months ago or a year ago. And that's how they can see how far they've come.
Rik:
And you just got to look at that. And it is so hard just to take it one day at a time though, because all you want is just to sleep well and feel better and not be anxious. Especially those early days where, I mean, I'd get up in the morning and shower to go to work feeling like I hadn't slept at all, when in reality I know I had slept at least a little bit, but I'd be shaking in the shower just from the anxiety of everything. And it was a lot.
Beth:
Yeah. And how did recovery start showing up first for you then, would you say?

Evidence & Decoupling Sleep from Calm

Rik:
For me, one of the big things was, what was it? Last year we went to training and I didn't know how I was going to make it through this training at work, and I did. And I was like, okay, cool, so I can do this. Alright. Then just having nights, I remember what was so confusing to me is there'd be nights where I slept well, I'd wake up feeling anxious, but then there'd be nights where I didn't sleep well and I would wake up feeling calm and I'm like, huh. So it's not all tied to how well I do sleep. And then I think too, learning how resilient you are and how you can function and sometimes even thrive despite lack of sleep. And, It's not fun and it's not easy, but you can still do it and be like, okay, I can handle this. It sucks and it's awful. And then there's some days where you hit by a pretty gnarly speed bumper and you feel like you're back at square one, but realizing, no, you're not back at square one. It just kind of feels that way.
Beth:
Yeah, for sure. I think your brain will just tell you that automatically just almost have to assume it's just going to come say all those things. And that's really pretty normal. And did you notice your reactions starting to change if you did have a bad night? Less freak out mode maybe?

Living Again: Coffee, TV & Letting Go

Rik:
Yes, absolutely. And one thing I started to do, I remember finally at some point when I think I was in that training and the first night we got there, we were in Arkansas for training, didn't sleep well at all. And I remember I was with my two coworkers and we're going to get coffee. And at that point, coffee was so taboo, oh, it'd make me not sleep. And I'm like, I'm just going to have a coffee. And I just remember it kind of almost a calming effect. And so finally I was like, yeah, I'm just going to live my life and this sucks, but I'm going to live my life. And if I had a bad night's sleep, like, Hey, maybe I'll get an extra shot of espresso in there and really help myself out. And it was so funny because those nights or those days where I'd have extra caffeine or drink too much caffeine because I just didn't care. I was like, whatever, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. And then wow, you end up sleeping pretty well that night and you're like, oh, this is so weird.
Beth
I love that about your coffee. Is life's too short to give up the coffee?
Oh, a hundred percent. That was one of the worst mistakes I made was not drinking coffee for months.
I know you're already, why did I do this to myself?
Beth:
I know. And it really has nothing to do with the coffee and you're already suffering. And then to take away your coffee, it's just brutal.
Rik:
And I just remember too, it was the coffee and then realizing that I could watch TV in bed and it wouldn't give me insomnia. And once I kind of doing that and basically living your life again as hard as it is, it's step by step, day by day slowly, the sleep improved first. So then I was left with a lot of anxiety and it was a mix of anxiety. I think. Like I said, glad I went to therapy for anxiety, but a lot of it was anxiety related to sleep. And then slowly that started to dissipate. I wouldn't be as anxious or I could kind of calm down before bed and I was like, huh. And slowly but slowly thinking less about sleep. So I mean, I am sure it was the same for you just day after day, just all consuming at work, something would be fine. And then I would think, oh my God, how am I going to sleep tonight? Well, if I don't sleep well tonight, how am I going to sleep tomorrow? I'm on call tomorrow. So I got to sleep well tonight. And just, it was crazy how much it can occupy your brain.
Beth:
It consumed my whole life. I mean, it was just every single thought or decision or everything I did in life was put through that filter of, but how is this going to affect my sleep? And now it's like I just don't ever think that anymore. And I think that is more meaningful to me than better sleep, to be honest. Being free of that.
Rik:
Yeah, free of the worry
And whatever happens, happens. And I think one thing that you and Richard that's great is sometimes a bad night's sleep is just a bad night's sleep. And I think back before, especially when I had something stressful going on the next day, yeah, I would sleep terribly waking up all the time, tossing and turning, but then through insomnia, you just get so hyper-focused on that. And the more you focus on it, the worse you make it. And it's such a weird thing that you just have to sit there and not be at peace, but just sit there with your insomnia and your anxiety in the middle of the night and tell yourself, I'm okay. I'm safe. And it's the one thing with this, I had never talked to myself before, at least externally, I talked to myself on the inside, but I'd sit there in bed and be like, you're going to be fine.
You're okay. You're safe. And just reassure myself and weirdly enough, you do it enough times and it starts to work.
Beth:
Yeah, your brain starts believing you. It's like, okay, maybe he really is okay.
Rik:
Yeah, maybe there's something.
Beth:
Maybe I could let down the guard
Rik:
Now. And it's just such, and I remember listening to your podcast and you just think about it. Yeah, we're as evolved as we are. Our brain is still an animal brain.
Beth:
Exactly. Yeah.
Rik:
Something has triggered the alarm and your brain can't stop focusing on it because it's so worried by this thing and puts you in guard mode and that's why you can't sleep.
Beth:
Yes. I mean, we are consciously so much further ahead than the unconscious lizard brain in this process. And I always think you almost have to take the unconscious mind by the hand it's a small child and just show it over and over that everything is okay and really realize yourself like, okay, this doesn't feel okay. But I actually looking around, I actually am okay. And just working with your brain on it and it will eventually get on board. It just takes time and repetition and a lot of patience,
Rik:
A lot of patients. And for me, it was interesting because my insomnia would morph into different things. So it originally started with the snoring and not being able to fall asleep,
And then you kind of forget. It kind of forgets about that and it's like, well, what if I do this to him? And then you get all anxious about that and then you kind of relax about that. And then it's like, what if I try that? There was a period of time. So I've always been afraid of heights, never a big fan, and I having these dreams about being on super high things or potentially falling off. And I had wake up and I'd be so freaked out and I couldn't fall back to sleep. And I'm like, what is happening?
Beth:
Well, that's a very interesting, that is your mind trying to get your attention? Is it that fascinating?

“Isn’t That Interesting?” — Changing the Relationship

Rik:
It was wild. And then I remember listening to on your podcast and you're saying, isn't that interesting? And so now I'm like, isn't that interesting that my brain is now doing this to me? And I feel like it's basically unpacking all the things with sleep that you're afraid of and showing your brain that you're okay with all these things. Like, okay, I'm okay with snoring myself, awake. I'm okay with sitting in the bed and nodding off a bunch of times, but not falling into true sleep. I'm okay sitting here and not sleeping at all tonight. I'm okay with waking up at three in the morning and not falling back asleep.
Just having to come to grips, having to talk to yourself and be like, it's going to be okay. No matter what the night throws at me, my brain throws at me. I'll be okay and I'll be safe.
Beth:
And that is how we show our brain. And acceptance is probably the secret weapon in all of this. And just understanding what is actually happening and that it is just conditioned arousal.
And a fear in the mind. And we can develop fears about so many things in life. And for us, it just happened to be around not sleeping. And just going back a little bit, I wanted to mention how for you in progress started showing up in sleep first, but it can be the opposite. So where you still had anxiety showing up, but sleep was better. Sometimes the anxiety gets less or the fear comes down, but sleep comes later. But what I think is so great about what you shared is that it shows you that anxiety and hyperarousal doesn't have to be gone in order to sleep.
Rik:
Oh, 100%. And I think one of my big nights with that was it had been super stressful at work and I was really anxious and I'm coming home from work late and I'm just all spun up with a bunch of things and I'm like, there is no way I'm going to sleep tonight. I was kind of okay. I'm like, it just is what it is. It's going to be arrested. And I get home, kick off my shoes, grab a shower real quick, hop into bed, turn the TV on, just anticipating I'm going to be up all night. And I don't even think I got through the credits of whatever show I was watching. And the next thing I know, my alarm's going off. I'm like, what just happened? I was like, and it's crazy. Yeah. Because as anxious as I was, I was still able to sleep.
But then I would have occasionally I'd have the opposite be true. I'd get into bed, I'm like, oh, what a great day. And just so relaxed and chilled out. Then I'd kind of nod off and my brain would start scanning and I'm like, oh, cool. I don't feel anxious, but it's going to be one of those nights. And that's just a weird, frustrating thing dealing your brain. You don't feel as anxious, but your brain is still in the back. It's still slightly on hyper alert mode and it's like, oh, I don't know if it's quite safe to let you sleep yet.
Beth:
Yeah. It's almost like you, I think isn't that interesting approach was so helpful for me because it just took me out of, because there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason in all of this. It is just very kind of messy and all over the map, and that's pretty standard. But trying to even pin it to what you did or didn't do or find the pattern or find the thing, and it's sort of giving up all of that is the recovery process is just like maybe I do, maybe I don't. And giving up on all of the trying to figure it out. And that's what takes us out of the fight, out of the struggle, out of the figuring it out mode basically.
Rik:
And it's so hard what my whole life has
Beth:
Been. Exactly. What makes you so good at your job this. Yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah, I know. I hear you. I hear you. And I was going to ask too, before I forget when I did a post way back, it's been a while about the best way to use the mentorship as always, you so generously chimed in and talked about how you moved through it. And since you talked about that, I've been so curious to hear how people use the mentorship and use the resources because there's really no right way and everyone takes different things from the program. But what was your process and did it change at all over time?

How Rik Used the Mentorship

Rik:
Yes, it did. So like I said, when I first did the sleep coach school was learn this, watch these videos as fast as possible. This will fix my anxiety. And then when I joined the mentorship, I was like, I really want to absorb this. So I limit myself. I would only watch one video a day. I would allow myself to watch it as many times as I wanted
To let it sink in. Sometimes I would just sit there and play it a couple times and then I would go on to the mentorship and ask questions. And then what I would do. So every night I try to walk, I find it's just good for me. It's not going to make me sleep. I learned that it will not make me sleep, it won't take away my anxiety, but it's just something I'd like to do and just help, not even wind down, but just a good ending to my day. And the first part of my walks would always be, I'd listen to one episode of your podcast. And I was like, I'm going to start at the beginning and then go all the way up to present. And then there would be certain episodes that would really resonate with me, and I would mark those down. And it's very weird. I would do it if I had a rough day, I'd be like, all right, I'm going to go on my walk and I'd listen to one of your podcasts. And after a while I felt like it was kind of like, okay, this is all part of the process.
This is all part of the process. It's not fun. It's not necessarily short, it's not linear, but this is where we're at. And just listen to you talk and go over different parts. Or even sometimes I would be like, okay, this is what I'm experiencing right now. I'm in a speed bump. So I try to find speed bump episodes and listen to that and be like, okay, I can't try to get out of this because that's not how this works. I have to be okay with being in this. And then eventually it'll kind of work through it.
Beth:
And now here you are on the podcast, so you've got full circle. I love that.
Rik:
Yeah, I never thought that I'd be here. And then one thing I kind of promised myself was like, if I could ever get through this, I would be as helpful to other people as possible. We talked about earlier, man, is it lonely?
And you see the people that just join up and you see what they're going through. And you think back to those days and it's just, it's brutal. And I'm lucky that I'm not married, don't have kids. So all I had to worry about is myself. So people that are worrying about their families and their kids and all this stuff, I'm like, man, I just had to worry about myself through this. And that was a mess unto itself, let alone having to raise kids, be in a partnership. That's a lot. So I just want to be there for people and be like, Hey, man, there is hope. It's not going to be as quick as you want it to be, but there is hope.
Beth:
Yes. And you have been so generous in the community and you're one of those people that gets out of the fire and goes back to help. And it's just been such a wonderful thing to watch as a coach. And so how is life now? I remember when we talked that you said you love your weekends, and I loved how much you love your weekends, but anything else that you want to share about how life is now in general?

Life Now and a New Perspective

Rik:
Life is pretty good. Work is stressful. I think that's just going to be par for the course working at the police department. My weekends are great. It's wild how much has helped me in several aspects of my life. Learning just to be okay with things in sitting with things. A part of this too was tied to anxiety and learning. Hey, I remember talking to my psychiatrist and he is like, Rick, I hate to tell you, but you're going to be anxious in your life. It's a human emotion. You can't make that go away. You just have to accept it. And he was like, the harder you push it away, the more it's going to stick around. And you're like, oh. And it's interesting, your latest episode about insomnia coming back
And necessarily for me, it's not, sometimes I have a rough night's sleep, but sometimes it's weird hearing a song or seeing something that reminds me of when I was in the worst part of it. And you can feel those emotions come rushing back. And sometimes my hair on my arms will stand up or get cold sweats for a minute because you just think back on your tough struggles and you have to talk to your brain like, Hey, but that's where you see those neuropathies that are formed. This makes you think of this time, which just heightens that stress and that anxiety, like holy moly. And you really truly realize how strong your brain can be.
Beth:
And that might happen for a while. And I think there is a bit of a, when you come out of something like this, it's processing some grief, it's processing
Rik:
Oh, for sure.
Beth:
What you went through. And that can take some time.
Rik:
I just remember thinking through a lot of this, you start identifying yourself as someone with insomnia, and it can become your identity. And we talked about you literally focus your whole days on it. And it shouldn't be that way. That's what just makes it worse. And you just have to let it run its course. And it can be so, so hard, but slowly, slowly it goes away slowly. You find yourself thinking about it less and less, and it'll come back every once in a while. And you're thinking about it and you feel those, they keep beebies as I call 'em, and you're like, oh, man. But you have to be okay with feeling those emotions. And I just try to focus on showing myself, Hey, you're okay. And it's okay to feel anxious about thinking about insomnia. You'll be fine.
Beth:
Yeah. It doesn't mean that anything has gone wrong. In fact, it's a part of the healing. It's a part of the process.

Practical Habits & Letting Go of Tracking

Rik:
And so yeah, it's pretty good. I don't know. And then one thing too is learning not to go back to thinking too much. What was my sleep on my C pap that I have? It will track how much long I had it on for. And this, I don't ever look at any of that stuff on purpose. I don't want to go back down. I still practice, for the most part, the timeless method. I try to not check my phone after 10. It's weird though. And it's so funny for me because everyone's different. If I fall asleep, I can now wake up in the middle of the night and I can look at my clock and be like, how much time do I have left? And be okay. And then if I'm kind of struggling a bit, I'll put on a TV show and don't even often make it through the first episode. And then before I know it, my alarm's going off again. So I think it's a lot of progress there. And then also too, I don't know, I'm now 44 years old and I talked to a lot of my buddies about this stuff. It's interesting to see other people that have sleep issues. We all do, but they don't let it for them. It doesn't turn into insomnia.
They'll just be like, oh man, lately I've just been sleeping really terribly. But they're not worried about it. And you're like, oh, well that's good that you don't worry about it because a whole nother thing. And just knowing as I've gotten older, my sleep isn't going to be the same now as when I was 20 years old. I've changed my, I'm up way earlier now than I was when I was younger, so I'm never going to be able to sleep until 11 o'clock again. And that's okay, as long as I can get some good sleep. And then anytime I get really weird, anytime I see, oh, do these hacks to improve your sleep, and I'm like, oh boy, no thank you. And people really harp it on getting eight plus hours and it's like, no, that's not how that works.
Beth:
No, I know that myth has caused so many problems. It's amazing. And no one even knows where the eight hours came from. It was just kind of pulled out thin air.
Rik:
And I'll sleep. I probably sleep between each night six and around seven hours. And I feel better now than pre insomnia when I was sleeping 8, 9, 10 hours. I think through just kind of peace of mind, the C Pap I'm sure helps and just not stressing about it. Most days I wake up and there's that initial, my alarm goes off at five every morning and I'm like, Ugh. But by the time I'm out of the shower, I'm like, all right, let me get my coffee in and let's get after it. I'm feeling pretty good by then.

Closing Reflection of Hope

Beth:
Yeah. I often joke, I'm so indifferent to sleep now that I wonder, do I need to think about it a little bit more because I just don't, don't know. I'm almost like, have I fallen? Have I gone to the sleep optimization category of people? Have I actually have become one of those people that needs to optimize my sleep. I don't know, but I'm so happy for you, Rick. And last question, and it's a bit different than the silver lining question that I usually ask because you have been so generous of spirit. What would you say to someone with insomnia who is still on the climb? What would you like them to know?
Rik:
Keep hope. It's going to get better. Keep hope. And it's so tough in those dark hours of the morning. It is so hard. I would just sit there and cry or want to cry sometimes, but keep hope and it will be better. And just trust in the process too. I guess. Trust in the process, it will get you where you need to go. And yeah, that would be my advice to people.
Beth:
Amazing. I love that. I can't thank you enough for sharing and just being so honest about your experience. And like I said, I'm so happy for you and I am truly grateful that I had the chance to work with you.
Rik:
Yeah, it's been awesome. I will, this is probably one of the most life-changing things in my life, and it's pretty cool to come up the other side because it has an application across the board in your life to just learn to deal with super stressful and uncomfortable things. And I feel like my threshold for dealing with things through insomnia, which I think was awful, is massively improved, and it's made me better as a person. So that's kind of cool. That's a cool little side benefit. But yeah, thank you so much. And just being there for people and teaching us this, it's so wild to me that all these sleep doctors, this is so not on their radar, and I don't understand how
Beth:
I know. And someday we'll get to look back, we'll say, well, we were at the leading edge of all of this. We knew that way back when at the forefront. Right, exactly. So well said. And for all of you out there listening, thanks a lot for being with us, and we will see you next time on the MINDBODY Sleep Podcast. Bye, Rick.
Rik:
Bye. Have a good one.
Beth:
You too.
Rik:
Thank you.