Ep 10. Reclaiming Sleep as a New Mom: Talia Cooper's Journey

Hey there new moms, this one is for you!

This insightful conversation is with Talia Cooper, an intuitive eating coach who’s been in the trenches of postpartum sleep disruption. And her case, insomnia kicked in when her daughter actually started sleeping BETTER!

Here’s a sneak peek of some of the wisdom she’s dropping in this one:

• The a-ha moment she had after infant sleep training
• How old eating patterns showed up during sleep struggles
• How sleep became an obsession
• The big eye-opener she had about hyperarousal
• How rules and rigidity create pitfalls for sleep
• How my free email course rerouted her sleep approach
• Why it’s all comes back to TRUST

This wonderful interview is sure to help anyone struggling with the postpartum sleep puzzle!

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Connect With Talia: taliacoopercoaching.com

Full Show Notes & Transcription HERE.

 

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About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:

For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.™ has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.

 

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Beth

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Today, I am very excited to be joined by intuitive eating and body image coach Talia Cooper, welcome.

Talia 

So much.

Beth 

Yes, I'm so excited about this conversation. And just to give the listeners a little bit of context about today's conversation, Talia reached out to me about a month ago, in response to my free email course. And you know, people will often share a little note or an aha, about what they learned in the course, which, of course always makes me so happy. But Talia, you sent along this beautiful letter? And today? Yes, there was. And I loved it. You talked about your experience with sleep. And I was just blown away by the way, you filtered your takeaways through the lens of what you do in the world, which is help people feel comfortable in their bodies again, and how control can often backfire when it comes to these very intuitive aspects of our being like sleeping and eating. And I was just so fascinated by everything that you said. So first, tell us a bit about you and how your sleep troubles started.

Talia 

Totally. Yeah, thanks so much. But well, yeah, I mean, so I would say that growing up, and for most of my life, I would have said I was a perfectly fine sleeper, like, not amazing, not terrible, but perfectly fine. And then last year, actually, almost exactly a year ago, I had a baby. And leading up to that I you know, everyone talks about sleep being hard. As new parents, I definitely was expecting that. And I was pretty nervous. It was probably one of the top things I was nervous about was sleep. So I knew I knew sleep was going to be a journey. And I have to say that it was a journey. But it was a pretty different journey than I thought it would be. At the beginning, it was it was actually pretty much what I expected. You know, babies have to eat all the time. So whether you're just awake a lot and breastfeeding a lot. And that was that was sort of what I expected. But then my baby started to be able to sleep longer and longer stretches, and I would get so anxious because it'd be like, okay, like she fell asleep. Now's my moments. Like, and she's gonna wake up in a couple hours that I would get really anxious about, and I wouldn't fall asleep. And I was like, okay, you know, like, at some point, oh, I'll refigure out how to sleep again. I mean, I think it was hard. But I also sort of had expected this. And then after a few months, we ended up actually hiring like a baby sleep coach, who helped my helped us sort of work with our daughter to learn independence, sleep skills, and I was really anxious about that. But it went great. She like, loves. She loves sleep. She's a human, she loves photos. Yeah. And she started sleeping through the night. And I was like, Okay, well, this is great. You know, now I will sleep through the nights. And I still was it, I was still sort of like having that thing. Same thing of just like feeling anxious and ready to jump up and help her but she didn't need my help anymore, you know, and I was just like, I started to feel like something had broken in me. Like I didn't know how to sleep anymore. And that's best that is when I started the Google research. Yes. Yeah. So it started, you know what the tea is? And then that just more and more things. I mean, I know you know, this journey, but I started adding on more and more things of like, here's how to sleep.

Beth 

Yeah, the effort. The efforting starts.

Talia 

That efforting started. Yeah.

Beth 

Thanks so much for sharing this. I think a lot of people, a lot of postpartum moms will relate to this experience because it is such a common like precipitating factor where I remember you saying in your letter, when you didn't start sleeping on the timeline that you thought you should be sleeping. That was sort of the beginning of the shift of starting to go down the the route of you know, trying to sleep right? 

Talia 

Yep. Exactly. And just trying more and more. And the thing was that it all the things would sort of work initially. And I'd be like, I mean, not all of them, but some of them would work initially. And I'd be like, Okay, this is great. I've unlocked the secret, whatever. Yeah. And then if I ever had a bad night's I would be like doing like a, what's it called? Like a post mortem? Like, what? Why did I went what went wrong? What did I not do? Yeah. Well, I only got, you know, five minutes a morning sun I should have done to, you know, like, just getting really detailed.

Beth 

Yep. The full analysis, full analysis. Yeah, totally. Totally.

Talia 

And I'd be doing that in bed when I was not sleeping. You know, it'd be going while I was trying to fall back asleep. I was going through like, what went wrong? 

Beth 

Yeah. And you know, one of the things you said in your email you wrote, as an intuitive eating coach, I'm surprised that I didn't recognize that I was going into perfectionist rule following mode, when I added in more and more sleep roles to try and fix my sleep. So tell us a little bit more about that realization? 

Talia 

Yes. So I, it's so funny to me now. Because I'm like, there was so many clues then I, I think in hindsight, and like, you know, I did have that little like, tickle in the back of my mind that something was off. But I, it took me, it took me until I read your email course to like, actually pick up on what was going on. But yeah, you know, I mean, as an intuitive eating coach, I teach people how to let go of all the accumulated food rules, and I am someone who used to have accumulated food rules, to trust their body to know, you know, what it wants to eat, and when and how much and also not to be perfectionist about any of that, because our bodies, you know, our bodies know how to handle how to handle things. Yeah. And when I used to struggle around eating stuff, it would just, I would add all these different food rules on and it felt rigid. And I could tell at the time that it was rigid, and that it was not giving me the like, flexible, creative spirit that I believed to be inherent to who I was. But I, I couldn't see a way out at the time. And that was just what happened with sleep as well as I could feel myself getting more rigid about, here's what time I have to be, you know, on the couch, drinking this tea, reading a book with the little lights, you know, and here's like, here's how it has to go. But I was struggling to see my way out. And you know, it's interesting, because all these blogs that I was reading and podcasts that I was listening to, to try to get my sleep tips from, they use the term optimization, right, and then saying how to optimize this for sleep, how to optimize this for energy. And it felt so compelling. That something that optimize it was really compelling to me. And I could see that the same people, the same bloggers and podcasters had entries of about how to optimize your diet. So I was like, well, that I don't believe in that. I know, it's not in my mindset, and I'd let go of that. But I'll take their optimizing sleep, that's difference. And again, I could feel that tickle the back of my brain being like, is it different? Is it is it different if it's feeling the same in my body, but being like, no, no, it's different. It's different. So when I read your email course, that was when it all just sort of clicked for me like, rigid rules or rigid rules. And it seems that that's that I need to keep examining, and myself as if I have that feeling in my body that I'm doing a rigid behavior. It's worth examining and just noticing like, okay, so I have that tendency within me. And I, after I read your email, of course, I call that my friend Zoe. And I was like, Oh, my God, Zoe, like I did it again. You know, I did the thing where I created all these rigid rules for myself, and now I have to go through the process of letting go. And she was like, Well, good news, Talia with eating. It took you years with the sleep. It sounds like it took you about nine months. Yeah, so the good news is the lesson you learn over and over again in life sometimes at least gets a little bit faster.

Beth 

Yes, yes. Oh, I just I, I am with you so much on this and how you sort of had I had so So much of this understanding, and I don't think I mentioned it, but I've got a new nutritional therapy background, and I very much in line with not putting a lot of rules or anything around, you know, food because I think it can have the same kind of paradoxical effect that it can have with sleep. And, you know, I was very knowledgeable in the whole mind body realm, but I wasn't applying any of it to insomnia. And it was so weird, it was almost like insomnia had this separate category. You know, it was like, well, that's for everything, but not insomnia, because this is a sleep problem. And I've got it, you know, like, hit it from the fixing sleep standpoint. But also, to your point, like, how we do sort of get this optimization message out there, everywhere. Yeah. And it's, it's very easy to get knocked out of that understanding that sleep is passive. And there's, there's virtually nothing we need to do except be awake during the day. And that is literally it, and you've got everything you you already need, you know, inside of you to, to sleep at night. So it is, it is can be tricky sometimes to keep this knowingness inside of you that know, we all have these innate abilities to heal, and sleep and our bodies are always, you know, working in our favor and striving for balance and calibration all of these things. And yeah, when you were talking about optimization, I always say there's these two conversations happening. There's the yes, the sleep optimization, which has value for for somebody, perhaps that doesn't have insomnia. But that that conversation can often lead to insomnia. Exactly, you know, what I mean? So it's like, an I'm sure it's the same for you with with, you know, diets or, or things along those lines?

Talia 

Yes, oh, my gosh, and actually, something just clicked for me, another thing clicked for me when you were talking, which is that, um, you know, I think I said in my email to you that it was a wild experience to read your writing, because you use a lot of the same language that I do. And, again, just sleep and food. And there's another similarity pop up for me now, which is the term equilibrium is also a term that I use a lot with my clients, which is trusting our bodies equilibrium, and that our bodies are gonna be the size that they are meant to be. And all we have to do is get out of our own way. And unless it's just clicking for me that it was the same as sleep, I was not trusting my body's ability to find equilibrium in sleep when I was going down those, the optimization rabbit hole, yes.

Beth 

Oh, yeah. And I think like, it's, it's so understandable, when, you know, of course, we have these sleep disruptions throughout life, you know, whether it's having a baby or going through an illness or a grieving process, or whatever comes up, and then the event either resolves or passes and sleep, you know, kind of comes back on track. But then if there's some threshold in the mind, that gets passed, that it hasn't snapped back as fast as it normally would, or, you know, some little thought comes in, like, why should be sleeping now and then starts a whole, a whole rabbit hole, you know, experience that, you know, you went down, and so many do. So I'm sure you know, it's going to also I was looking for where you, you made a comment about, you were putting the pieces together with the sleep coach that you hired for your baby, but then you you understood that your baby didn't have the hyper arousal piece? Come into it. I would love to hear more about that.

Talia 

Yes, and you know, like, working with the baby sleep coach was a really great experience. And that whole, you know, the people have, there's 1000 thoughts about baby sleep out there and lots of feelings about that. But the the person that we worked with, their methodology was sort of what you're saying, which is that all you need to sleep really is to have been awake for an appropriate amount of time. And so she was teaching us how to read our baby's cues to have it be the appropriate amount of time awake. But there's also you know, we do a whole bedtime routine and there's all this stuff we do and I think that it was easy for my mind to then translate this to Okay, well the bedtime routine plus the proper awake time for baby equals really successful sleep for her. So that ended up translating to me like, oh, therefore, I need to do all the right things, I need to have the right bedtime routine. And I need to have the exact right amount of whatever, in order for sleep to work for me. But there were a couple of things missing in that translation, which was one, the bedtime routine for my baby is not what helps her sleep. That's what creates secure attachment and predictability and love and that, you know, sure, and a bigger sense that, of course, helps her sleep, she knows she's loud, and to predict the same things. But like, that is not in and of itself was helping her sleep. And I wasn't connecting that. And so she was sleeping because she was awake for an amount of time and didn't have hyper arousal. I was not sleeping, even though I created a whole bedtime routine for myself. And it followed all the things because I was then getting in bed being like, did I do all the things that I do them correctly? You know, am I a good person? Am I being a good? Sleep temperature? And so it just sort of clicked for me that it was like, that's the difference for us?

Beth 

Yeah, yeah, they just, you know, they're so they're so new to life, they have time to learn any, any fear around sleep or, or anything like that, you know, we're you know, as adults have a little bit more time on this planet. So that factor can come into it sometimes. But yeah, I thought that was so fascinating how you made that connection, that while she doesn't have the hyper arousal piece, so this is lovely. Yeah, they just fall asleep. Yeah, and we still have that ability as adults, you know, it doesn't really leave us. But then we start thinking about it, you know, we just we think about it, and that's what kids that but yeah, exactly.

Talia 

And same with food as well, you know, this is my clients is that with intuitive eating, I'm not actually trying to teach them like a new skill. And like, I'm actually just trying to help you relearn what you knew how to do as a baby, which is, all babies know, when they're hungry. I mean, there might be some exceptions, but for the most part, kids know, when they are hungry, and when they are full, and what they want to eat. And like, you know, my baby, when she is full, she will just push food away. She's so clear. Yeah. And, you know, that's that, again, is so innate within all of us. And we're just relearning how to trust that process.

Beth 

Oh, beautifully said, Oh, I just love it. I just got chills. Yeah, I always say the same thing. I'm not, I'm not teaching you how to sleep, I'm not fixing your sleep, I'm guiding you back to what your body already knows, which is how to sleep. And I'm so curious, I, you know, I had a chance to look at your website and just look at the work you're doing. And I'm curious what the major influences in your life or that brought you to the current relationship that you have with yourself and your body and the work you do? 

Talia 

Yeah. Well, you know, as I alluded to, before, I had my own struggles with eating I do not say that I had an eating disorder, but I had sort of disordered eating, as some people say. And again, it was it started somewhat benignly. I don't know if that's the right term to say, but after going through a major breakup, I think I was looking for things to control, right. And the law of control is just so strong. For many of us, myself included, and I wanted to control my health, I wanted to feel healthy. And so I started cutting out some foods from my diet, and then cutting out more and more. And then I like, downloaded a calorie tracking app and started doing more and more exercise. And it just again, it's like the way that this kind of added up felt very similar to what happened with sleep where it just started with good intentions in some ways, and then just went down the rabbit hole. And I just, I remember hitting a moment in my life where I was like, I kind of stepped outside of it. And I was like, Oh, this will turn into an eating disorder. Like, that's the path that I'm headed on. And if I keep going, that's what's gonna happen. And I need to choose a different path. So at that time, I think my friend, Rachel Marcus was doing the sort of like body positive personal training and I was like looking at her website for inspiration. And I ended up finding about finding out about intuitive eating. And then I took courses with Isabelle Fox and Duke and Virgie Tovar and learned all about intuitive eating and trusting my body and it was just this. Yeah, wow, the experience of being like, okay, like I chose I chose the other path. I see what where I was about to go Oh, and I was able to choose a different pathogen just so grateful for all those people who taught me so much. And then after many years of that, I ended up getting certified as an intuitive eating coach and as a life coach, so that I could then support other people on this journey. And I mean, I love it. I love getting to work with people, you know, I imagine you find a similar thing with sleep, but because our bodies and food is just connected to so much, people come to coaching sessions, especially expecting that, you know, they're just going to work on food, they're just gonna work on how much they hated their body when they looked in the mirror this morning. And of course, it ends up being about everything in life. And I love that.

Beth 

Yes, amazing. Amazing. I think that that is so true. And I think that sometimes when these patterns show up in our lives, and they're around things that you really can't avoid, you know, because you've got to eat, you've got to sleep. So they can be very loud messages. Yes. You really can't like it's like, Okay, I'm gonna have to, you know, look at this and, and it's the same thing when people come through my program, they're surprised at how much it applies to life. It's not it's not even about the sleep. It's not about the food. It's It's surprising how, how it's about everything else. So tell everyone where they can find you and the work that you do.

Talia 

Yeah, so folks can find my work on my website, Thalia Cooper coaching.com. You can also follow me on Instagram at entirely Talia. I admit that I do less posting on all of these things. Now that I have a bit. But I still send out a blog about once a month where I share different thoughts about bodies and food and Body Trust. And sometimes just life. And I might I might try to write a blog about the sleep and eating connection as well. So Phyllis, just want to check that out. They can go to tele pooper. coaching.com. And also, that's where you can sign up to get this approximately monthly email. Or follow me on Instagram for tips and tricks and fun times.

Beth 

Oh, I hope you do. I hope you write something. I think it would help a lot of people. I think a lot of people are struggling with sleep right now. So I hope that that ripples out into the world. And you know, you wrote at the very end, or somewhere with close to the end of of your letter, this beautiful passage. And you said thanks so much Beth for helping me reroute my car, it seems the lesson I am destined to learn over and over in life is to release rigidities and trust my body, which I was like, oh, again, I'm getting the goosebumps. And you know, I've been thinking about some sort of, you know, signature sign off question for my podcast guests. And I'm leaning towards asking this one. What are a few of the Silver Linings that can come with the experience of insomnia or what were they for you? 

Talia 

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I I have a big one, I think which is that I'm actually so grateful that I got obsessed with the morning light. Because I don't think I would have done that without this rabbit hole that I went down. And now I actually love it. And I was I was writing to you like it does remind me of the moment some of my clients have or they're like, Oh, I actually still like salad. I'm like, I still like my exercise class or whatever, like insert habit that I previously only did because I thought I had to do it to be healthy or to be fit or whatever. But now it turns out I actually like it. And I sort of feel that way about some of the like sleep routine stuff, particularly the morning light. So we got in this habit of every morning. I'm going outside and breastfeeding my daughter on the stoop. And I just love it so much. It's like my favorite ritual. But now it's even better because it's not attached to rigidities. So like, yeah, back then we were doing it rain or shine and it was a little absurd. And now I'm like, if it's raining really hard, I don't have to do it. But I really enjoy it on the mornings when it's nice.

Beth 

So now you're doing it because you want to and not because you have to and there's no goal attached to it. Just the beauty. 

Talia 

Yeah, it's just like, it makes me so happy. And again, I think it makes me happier now that it's not about a rule.

Beth 

Exactly how old is your daughter now?

Talia 

She will be one In two days,

Beth 

Oh, are you having a birthday party?

Talia 

We are. Yes.

Beth 

Fun. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you again, Talia for talking with us today and for sharing the lovely words that you did. It meant the world to me. And I look forward to keeping up with with what you do.

Talia 

Thanks so much that this was such a blast, and I'm so excited to keep following your podcasts and hearing your wisdom.

Beth 

Awesome. Awesome. All right. Thalia we'll talk to you soon. Take care.

Talia 

Thanks, Beth. Bye. Bye.