Ep 57. Why You Can’t Stop Researching (and Why It’s Not Helping)

 Can’t stop researching your way through insomnia?

You’re not alone. 

When sleep becomes unpredictable and confusing, researching feels like the next best step. Because at least you're doing something… right?

But what if that something is quietly reinforcing the very problem you’re trying to solve?

In this episode, Beth Kendall and Michelle Weil talk about why it’s so easy to get stuck in the research loop, and why it’s so hard to get out.

Tune in and learn:

– Why researching creates the illusion of safety
– How it keeps us stuck in fear instead of freedom
– Why true recovery comes when you no longer need to know

If you’ve been operating from the belief that more knowledge equals more sleep, this conversation will gently challenge that idea—and invite you into a new one.

Enjoy! 🧡

Previous Episodes with Michelle:

Ep. 7: The Lighter Side of Insomnia
Ep 48. Belief or Behavior: Which Comes First? w/ Michelle Weil

Michelle’s Website: https://hopefulmind.com/

Connect with Beth:

👉 Instagram 

Work with Beth:

👉 Start the Free Insomnia Course

👉 Learn About the Mentorship

Full Transcription Below:

About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:

For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights. 

DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurance as to any particular outcome.

When You're Stuck in the Research Loop with Insomnia 

 

Beth:

Hello everyone and welcome back to the MINDBODY Sleep Podcast. My name is Beth. I'm a sleep coach for people with insomnia, and I am super happy to be joined once again by another sleep coach who also just happens to be one of my closest friends. Her name is Michelle. Weil. Welcome Michelle.

Michelle:

Hi. And thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be back.

Beth:

Well, I'm so glad you're back. And for any of the listeners out there who aren't familiar with Michelle, is it the third time? I think it's the third, I think third maybe fourth. Might be fourth time she's been on the pod and if you haven't listened to her other episodes, you absolutely must because they're amazing — I'll link those up in the show notes. But Michelle and I are always talking about all the podcasts that we could do together because we talk pretty much every day. And I feel so fortunate to have that friend in my life that you can bounce the same idea off a thousand different ways and it just never gets old.

But we were talking about the role of researching when you have insomnia, and I think it's safe to say that many, if not most of us who run into the experience of insomnia are pretty good researchers. So Michelle, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off by telling us first a bit about you and how the role of researching played out in your experience of insomnia. But first I have to say, I wasn't sure if I was going to bring this up, but I'm thinking back to your message that you left right before we got on the zoom call, and I think there's something that you want the world to know about watermelon.

Well, which part, Beth?

Maybe we could just have a quick little mini pod on everything we've learned about watermelon folks, we are having a watermelon summer, and the way this all played out is I finally in my fifties, got an adult chef's knife. A really, I'm really finally adulting when you get the real knife. And this led to watermelon is my all time favorite food, but I don't like chopping the watermelon. And so my boyfriend got me this beautiful knife and we learned all about knives and how to hold them and what to look for. And it was fascinating. And he loves the process of chopping watermelon. And this has created a daily watermelon experience in my summer. So I was telling Michelle about this, there's something called Black Diamond watermelons, and I know you don't have 'em in Canada. Michelle, I'm so sorry for you.

Michelle:

Well wait, we might, I just haven't found one yet. It might not be the season. I think you have to wait until the end of season, so I have not given up.

Beth:

Okay, good. I might actually have to quote research that.

Michelle:

You might. We may have to research the black.

Beth:

I've already done a little bit of research, but I will have to dive back in. It's so apropos. But yeah, so I was telling Michelle and I kind of opened up with this black diamond watermelon and she got to thinking why wouldn't we have watermelon all summer? And the ripple effect of this watermelon story has, my parents have now had nonstop watermelon. The minute they finish one, they go out and get another one. And they're only $3 down in Arizona, these giant watermelons. And so Michelle, tell the listeners every quick and a condensed version of what you were telling me earlier today because I didn't know...

Michelle:

Well, first of all, I had watermelon right before jumping on this podcast. Of course. It's just part of my day now. And I love that you have the adult knife, very adult experience to have the good. I have a good knife as well. And I feel like it's such an adult using it.

And I find cutting. I'm the watermelon cutter in our house and I find it very satisfying to cut up a watermelon, feels very productive. And we were talking about how to find a good one, how to find a good one. And this is something that I had been researching and here it goes. Exactly. And you know what? Proud, very proud of researching and all the things. And I found out something new yesterday about picking out a good watermelon that I was very excited to tell you about because I didn't know if you knew and you didn't. So this is all very life-changing. But we were talking about looking for a watermelon with a certain weight or density if it looks small, but it's kind of heavy. That's a good sign. That yellow patch, you want that? That's good. Don't shy away from that. That can mean it's a sweet watermelon. And then what I learned yesterday was the ends, they have a stem and then there's this little, I don't know what to call it. I was calling it a nubbin too. The nubbin on the other side. You want to look for the smallest nubbin possible because that means it was on the vine longer. It's sweeter. So I'm excited to take all this research and go out and see if I can optimize and find absolutely the best watermelon that I can possibly find. And I'm excited. I'm probably going to go out possibly after this podcast to go watermelon shopping. Love it. It's that important. It's become that important in my household to have watermelon.

Beth:

I had no idea about the stem looking for the stem that way. And I just have to add, because my dad told me this when I was down there last week, that with the yellow, you have to look for it to be buttery yellow.

Michelle:

Yes. Yes. That is the key word. So glad you said that. I'm glad you said that.

Beth:

Yes. You want to look for a buttery yellow.

Michelle:

Important.

Beth:

Yeah, because it means that it's, it wasn't picked too early. It's been on the ground long enough to ripen.

Michelle:

Yeah. So it's very counterintuitive because if you see watermelon and it actually looks, let's say very pretty just green,

You might want to get it, but you really want to look for that yellow, that buttery yellow spot. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Want to look for the ugly watermelon. Exactly. It looks a little uglier, but it's going to taste better. And then we could do, I mean again, we could go on for a long time. We each have different cutting systems, just do a

Beth:

Podcast on watermelon for how much we have time. We have devoted this summer to talking about watermelons because we go into how to cut the water. Yeah, there's different ways. And

Michelle:

You know what? I think there's a right way. I'm just going to say it. I know. We could have a whole

Beth:

Debate about that. Huge debates. Huge debates. Totally. So I mean, I think this is the perfect segue into this topic of researching. So back to you and tell us about you and what researching looked like for you?

Michelle:

Sure. Well, just like Beth, I am a sleep coach as well. And I struggled with really severe insomnia for about five years before recovering and coming into the coaching space. And when we were first thinking about this topic, all the memories of how much of a researcher I really was started to come back to me. And before I really understood insomnia, and I was in these years of really just confusion and fear and not understanding what was going on. Why couldn't I sleep? Why did I have so many symptoms? Why was I constantly anxious? And I just felt like my brain and body was no longer my own. I didn't understand anything. So during those years, I was really constantly in a research loop of some kind. Now the topics would change. I might stay on a topic for even more than a year at a time.

I mean, I was an avid researcher. I think I could have been paid to be a researcher during this time. That's how in depth I could even take courses and I would spend so much time reading papers and Googling and books. I mean, you name it. I was deep into research mode for years and years at a time. I was trying to turn over every rock and look under it. Could this be it? Could this be how I was broken? What about this? What about every topic from hormones to dysautonomia to Parkinson's, to, I mean, gosh, I can't even list them all. Just all the things. And it was very consuming. And it also felt at the time extremely necessary.

Beth:

Yes,

Michelle:

It felt like a life or death situation and that I needed to research my way out of that life or death situation essentially is what it felt like. So it felt like the most essential research that I could be doing. And I would never have known at the time that, well, one, that it wasn't going to lead anywhere, and that it was actually part of what was fueling this really hard experience that I was having.

Beth:

Oh yes. Everything that you're saying. So much. So very similar to my own experience. And of course, I mean I had insomnia for decades. So my researching evolved. I mean, I remember as a young girl checking out books at the library and reading them and then turning them back in and checking them out again and reading them again. And then of course, my researching skills evolved over the eras with the introduction of Google, which honestly just 10 x everything.

Michelle:

Oh my goodness. Have such. Now I have a moment of such empathy that your research period was also before Google, so you had to really earn it. You were a real researcher.

Beth:

Yeah. I mean, and how deeply this pattern, this behavioral pattern became ingrained with my way of life. And of course with the internet, the researching capacity just got so much bigger. And I'm really overloading my brain with just a tremendous amount of information. Yet I didn't understand how I could know so much about sleep, but still struggle with it more than anyone I knew. And it just would be this vicious cycle of, okay, well, I've got to learn more. I've got to learn more, I've got to learn more. And I think you really touched on it with that word confusion is because I didn't understand what was going on and no one could really explain it to me. The places, the people, the things I was doing to seek help weren't helping me. And so I think the allure of researching for me was that it made me feel like I was doing something.

And it really did on some level become a bit of an addiction for me. But it made me feel productive. It made me feel protective. I couldn't find help anywhere else, but at least I could keep going online and try to find that piece that surely had to be out there somewhere. And like I said, I think looking for that information or that piece in and of itself became an addiction. But how many times have we heard people say to us, I kind of gave it one last ditch effort and I went online and that's when I found you. Or that's, it was sort of like, so it isn't like it's all bad. It's really not because in some ways people, this is how they find us. But

Michelle:

Plus we just established that the watermelon research was very necessary.

Beth:

How fruitful. Look how fruitful. Fruitful. Well done. Well done. Yeah. I mean, this is just such a common thing that our folks run up against. But here's the thing when, let me ask you this, Michelle. When would you say that researching stops becoming helpful? Or when does it become a bit of a trap?

Michelle:

Well, I think the first thing to notice or to know is that this, what we're describing is really like, I like how you used that word. It becomes sort of a addictive, you're in it. It feels like you're, well, at least I'm doing something right. And it feels very necessary. And I think a lot of it really was a result of being in that for both of us and for so many people being in this constant sort of fight or flight survival response where the story of being in that survival response is, I got to fix it now or else. And if that's not even a conscious story, that's the feeling of being there is I've got to fix it now or else all the time. All the time sort of driving that research loop. And so where it becomes unhelpful is really when it becomes this very fear driven process where it's an extension of that fear. And it's so tricky because in the moment it can feel a little better because what you just said, it feels like you're doing something in the part of us that feels like we really want to fix and control will feel better by doing this.

And so it does feel a little bit better, but it never actually gets us. We want to go. And it just becomes this very fear driven process as opposed to what you mentioned before, a learning driven process, which is very, very, very different. And so thinking about, well, what's actually driving this? Is this fear or is this a desire to learn or something that feels inspiring and joyful or enjoy something that can be enjoyed in some way? It's really a different underlying driver. What do you think? A hundred percent. And

Beth:

A hundred percent. And I think the watermelon research is a perfect example of this. This has not been a fear-driven research process. It is sheer interest. And how fascinating that there's these videos out there that show you how to cut a watermelon in the most efficient way. So yeah, I think it goes back to intention as it so often does. And the ways that I see researching becoming a bit of a trap is when you're in something. So sometimes people might be in the program and they know it's helping them, but then they're looking just in case. You know what I mean? And so it's like, excuse me. It's like this is helping, but what if I'm missing something out there? I've got to look just in case. Very human.

Michelle:

That's really common. That's a big one.

Beth:

It is. And I think another way it can become less helpful, and this is something you can definitely look for, is when you leave a span of research feeling more anxious instead of less, that's sort of a clue that, okay, this is something you might want to visit. Or back to my first point, you begin to start doubting what is helping you or what is working for you.

When research starts pulling you out of that, then okay, this is not as helpful. This is becoming less helpful for me. And of course the biggest one I think, is that when researching starts pulling you out of trust with your own body, and we unconsciously start outsourcing our own inner knowingness to Google or just some sort of authority out there that we put more stock in than our own natural wisdom that we all hold inside. And I think for me, that's what I have to be very aware of. And also just that back to the intention of am I looking for something to fix me? Because the invisible message back to ourselves with that intention is that what we are or something within us is broken, or is it strictly from that educational standpoint? I want to understand more about this. I want to understand my experience. I want to know more about watermelon. That's such a different driver than the fixing orientation.

Michelle:

Oh hugely. Yes. That's completely

Beth:

Different.

Michelle:

But I think what you touched on is the most important piece of this is that it can take us away from our own inner knowing, our own trust, our own intuition, and think that we have to outsource that somewhere externally. We're going to find the answer out there if we just keep digging and keep digging and trying to fix. And it's like we're not looking in the one place we could actually find the most helpful information within ourselves. And even when we're in states of anxiety and we're feeling scared, we can still access our own inner knowing. It can feel a little bit harder with that sort of noise around it, but it's still there. And that's always going to lead us. Some are so much more helpful than any amount of all this external research. And would you agree that that is actually the thing that can point you in the direction of maybe research that could be helpful versus feeling like you have to do all the research about all the

Beth:

Things? Yeah, like I said, I think sometimes people, the research itself isn't good or bad. It is just like how we're using it and getting to know ourselves and how we're in relationship with this experience of insomnia and in relationship with sleep and starting to notice how am I using this or what is the intention or noticing if it's a fear-driven process, it's really learning about yourself, I think. But the research in and of itself isn't bad or good, it's just how we're using it. And sometimes it can be helpful. I mean, I think about how much we were talking about this before we hit record, how much information is out in the world right now, and it's so available and so at your fingertips. And I think that can be really a really fun thing. But then it's also being able to recognize, oh, I'm going into overwhelm. I'm putting too much information into my head, and now it's time to take a break. And so there's pros and cons. And it's just about knowing yourself, knowing your intentions, and also I think recognizing what do you want for yourself on some level.

Michelle:

Absolutely. Do you think there can also be a part sometimes for people where going back into research or maybe even staying in that research loop can start to sometimes become about avoidance?

Beth:

Oh yeah.

Michelle:

Have you found that? Yeah.

Beth:

Oh, definitely. Well, a couple of ways. One of the ways I was thinking about this is I think it's human nature to want to look for the easier path. It's so much easier to find a supplement or some external thing. It's easier than changing yourself or doing the inner work of meeting this fear. So that's some of it. And then you were talking more about using it as a way to, what is the feeling? If you didn't do the research, what would be the feeling that would show up in the space of that?

Michelle:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, part of what, I just want to really agree with what you were saying because if there's something else, if it could be caused by, let's say something else, that we could take a pill, for example, but then we wouldn't have to then be with it or we wouldn't have to do any inner work. Exactly. Which is of course the hard stuff. So that avoidance piece. And then the same idea is if we didn't do that in the moment, what is the discomfort that's actually coming up? And so that can be such a useful exercise. And I do that with so many of my clients, whether they might be using researching as an avoidance or some sort of a reassurance seeking, I might ask them to pause the next time they are drawn into the day of Googling, so to speak. Just pause first and actually just notice what kind of discomfort is present for them, what is actually coming up that is driving this. And so much of the time it's fear. It's really fear. And if they're able to really work with the fear in the moment, a lot of the times, the need for that research or that afternoon of Googling, it just falls away.

It falls away completely. So that's something that can come up as well, is even just noticing what is going on. And I think that's especially true when someone is, they're already educated. They really already understand what's going on. So I'm not talking about people at the very beginning where they're just learning what's happening. It's a little bit later that you see this pattern a little bit more.

Beth:

Yeah.

I mean I think when you start, that's such a good point. Talking about starting to talk about how, sorry my cat is on the microphone, but starting to talk about how we can work with this loop. And something that comes to mind is, I think the first thing is just not turning it into a rule or a restriction, like something you shouldn't or you can't do, or having it be all or nothing. Because I think the minute we turn something into a rule or restriction, it's automatically creates this fixation. And you just want to do it more. Which is why diets I just have never felt like really work. It just immediately creates this total focus on it.

Michelle:

Yes, I must have the cake now.

Beth:

Yeah, exactly. So it's not make or break, it's more like, oh. I think what really helped me start to, because, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, how our experiences were a little bit different in that for a lot of people, once they understand what is going on with them, the mystery is solved. They have so much more clarity, the need to research just kind of goes by the wayside, and they don't have that. And then there's, for me, my experience was more that pattern itself. And maybe because it had it for so many decades, it was so deeply ingrained that that was just the default behavioral pattern that I would go to whenever I felt discomfort, or I felt like I wanted some level of certainty. And so even when I understood insomnia, and I kept the pattern, but change the topic.

And so for me it was like, how do I want to work with this pattern of feeling, the need to hop on Google every time I feel some uncertainty or something doesn't make sense or something like that. I had to think about it more in a long-term fashion. Why would I want to start initiating some boundaries or start looking at changing this pattern for myself? And it's like what I really wanted was to not need to know the answer to everything, to live in the flow of life and trust that to trust myself and my ability to sleep and start honing that level of trust that comes with moving in a world that's always in flow. Nothing is really permanent. Everything flows, everything's changing. And just what would it be like to not have to control this all the time? So looking at how did I want to be in relationship with my life as a long-term thing being more beneficial to me than the short-term assurance or whatever little thing I could find on the internet. And now I'm talking more about when I'm researching in a way that is from that intention of fixing or whatever I am or whatever my present circumstances aren't right or aren't good enough, not so much the watermelon that we've been talking about. For me that

Michelle:

Was, that's only good

Beth:

For me. The personality of researching can very easily swing into that direction. So I would notice when I was getting out the laptop to avoid feeling something, just like you said, just starting to, first thing was just noticing that. And then sometimes I would notice and I would research anyway, and that's fine. And sometimes I would decide, you know what? I'm going to close the laptop lid. And just that action of closing the top of just that it's an action. It feels nice to have an action closing the lid. And then I would sort of replace that with something else. Maybe it was a walk or cleaning the kitchen, getting the watermelon, whatever it is. Just replacing that behavior with something else was that gentle nudge to move out of that pattern. And from that, I really, like we've talked about, I wish I could actually get a little bit more of that researching in terms of some, I've had a weird eye thing coming up that I've got a diagnosis and listen to this diagnosis. It's called, I think it's convergence insufficiency. And I'm thinking, and it's not that uncommon, I'm not worried about it at all, but why do they have to throw words like insufficiency into a diagnosis? I mean, is there a worst word, anything with the word?

Michelle:

They go out of their way to create these labels.

Beth:

I know. I'm like, okay, way to make you start worrying right off the bat. And I'm not worried. I just need to figure out what kind of glasses I need to get and all that. It's no big deal. But what was I talking about, Michelle?

Michelle:

Pick it up. I can't. So now far removed or...

Beth:

So far outside of the bridge, I'm so far removed pattern.

Michelle:

And I know don't want to go back in any capacity other than for the watermelon.

Beth:

Exactly. I only really am interested in researching things that intrigue me or fascinate me or expand me or help me be a better coach or just whatever. I'm not as interested in going down those, fixing myself or my life roads anymore.

Michelle:

Yeah. Oh, and what a relief, right?

Beth:

Yeah, it does. It frees up a lot of brain space, for sure.

Michelle:

Oh, it does. And it sounds like there was a time where you were finding a lot of safety in doing research, and then it sounds like there was this transition from finding more safety and trust in yourself.

Beth:

For sure.

Michelle:

For

Beth:

Sure.

Michelle:

Yeah. And I think that's really what we're all seeking when we're in this research pattern is a feeling of safety. Ultimately. I just want to feel safe.

I think that leads into the idea of when you're wanting to shift it, if you're seeing this happening, to not be rigid, just like you were saying, to be really flexible with it. And I think that's important. And when I work with clients who are maybe using research as, let's say, reassurance seeking in the moment, and we're looking to shift that a little bit, it really reminded me of what you were saying where I might encourage them to pause and be with the discomfort and then we'll work with that. But you know what? If they've done that for a little bit and they still want to research and Google, go for it. Go for it. Yeah, it's okay. Definitely. It's not an all or nothing doesn't exist.

Beth:

Yeah. I mean, I've seen this approached so many different ways by my clients. They sort of come up with what feels supportive or doable to them. I have had people just do a total research detox, but then I've had, maybe they say something like, I just stopped researching after a certain time of the day, or however they want to introduce that. It's all okay, whatever you decide or however you want to do it. There's really no right or wrong way.

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And be kind to yourself along the way, because a lot of us have been in that research loop for a while, and it can feel a bit unsafe to step away from, but ultimately it's really about finding that trust and safety within ourselves, and that's a bigger piece. Love that for sure. Love that. Yeah.

Beth:

Well, anything else that you can think of that to add to our research conversation today?

Michelle:

I dunno. I think we covered everything I was thinking of, actually.

Beth:

Yeah. Oh girl, it is always so wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you.

Michelle:

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm always so excited to come on and chat Anytime.

Beth:

Yeah. And please do tell everyone where they can find you. You can find [email protected]. Awesome. Go check out her site, get on Michelle's list, do all the things. Thanks again, Michelle.

Michelle:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was so fun.

Beth:

It was fun. And to everyone out there listening, thanks for being with us today. This is the MINDBODY Sleep Podcast. We'll see you next time...